Cleaning Business Life

CBL-Episode #79 GET PAID..Have you ever been left un-paid for a job you completed? Get some of our strategies with Jamie Runco

• Shannon Miller and Jamie Runco • Season 2024 • Episode 79

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Ever been left unpaid for a job you completed? Learn the secrets to safeguarding your cleaning business from financial instability with me, Shanon Miller, and my guest Jamie Runco from Above All Cleaning Services.

We dive into personal experiences and practical strategies that will keep your business afloat, from using a CRM system and enforcing a show-up fee to ensuring you keep a credit card on file for every client. You'll hear firsthand accounts of challenging situations and how Jamie and I turned these obstacles into opportunities for better business practices.

Imagine showing up for a cleaning job only to find a cancellation note, or facing a dramatic confrontation with a client undergoing AA who is refusing to pay. These are just a few of the real-life stories I share to illustrate the unpredictable nature of the cleaning business. You'll also hear about my experiences with an agoraphobic client and another who canceled abruptly due to a spontaneous remodel. These stories aren't just tales of woe; they're lessons in quick thinking, perseverance, and leveraging local connections to ensure payment and handle tough situations effectively.

Navigating legal procedures for payment disputes can be a minefield, but we've got you covered. Jamie and I discuss how transitioning from DocuSign to GetJobber for contract management and having clients sign off on authorizations can prevent disputes. Learn about the importance of clear policies, taking before-and-after photos, and conducting final walkthroughs to avoid post-service complaints. Don't miss the story of recovering nearly $2,000 from a client dispute and the emotional toll it took. This episode is packed with actionable insights and real-life examples to help you protect your business and ensure financial stability.

Don't forget to apply for a full scholar ship, of the SSPCBA-Sponsored by Klean Freaks University https://forms.gle/aVMS7GpLSkEsaoBM7

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Shannon Miller:

We're a little Recording in progress Welcome, welcome, welcome. My name is Shani Miller and I am your host of Cleaning Business Life, and today I am joined by Jamie Runco of All Above Cleaning Services in Northern California. Give her a hand.

Jamie Runco:

Yay, I'm so excited to be here, and today we're going to talk about non-payment of clients.

Shannon Miller:

I unfortunately have had this happen a lot since 2020. What about you, Miss Jamie?

Jamie Runco:

I have, I have, I have until I got something in place, so that never happens again. And it's funny that we learn kind of as we go along oh, that's a ding, something I don't need to do. Yeah, yeah, I've had it happen.

Shannon Miller:

It's amazing to me. You would think, because we're such an honest industry and we're very transparent, that the people that we're dealing with are going to be the same way, it's going to be reciprocity, when in actuality, there's telltale signs, when you review it in the back of your mind, because we all do it. Don't lie to me and tell me that you don't, because you do yeah, you pick up on those little a little set that you didn't.

Shannon Miller:

You didn't listen to your guide or your heart. You you went forth with it and then you ended up getting yourself in a pickle. But unfortunately, not everybody operates with honorable intention or integrity. So they look for the loophole that you're going to give them and if you give them the loophole, they're going to take it and run with it and then you're going to come over to me and go. I had this happen. How do I fix it? Sometimes I have time to walk you through it and sometimes I have time to walk you through it and sometimes I don't. I am working on a course with a very blunt name that I don't want to say here, cause I did say a little curse word in the last episode. I'm trying to keep it PC, but there there will be a little mini course on how to walk yourself through it. What were some of the steps you took to fix the nonpayment of your clients?

Jamie Runco:

Well, the first thing that ever happened to me, even before the nonpayment of clients is I showed up because I was still in the business cleaning. I show up at a house and there's a note on a piece of cardboard written saying I'm sorry, I don't need you. Today I'm there at their door with all my stuff and I was just like and that's whenever I decided to start implementing something inside of the like. That can't happen ever again.

Shannon Miller:

Right.

Jamie Runco:

So who don't know, that's actually a show up fee, that's a separate fee, that is a show up fee, and, um, whenever that happened, I just started thinking well, if this happens, I need to make sure that. So I did away with everything and, um, I make sure that I uh got a CRM, something, something that was cheap. Um, if I can sorry, are you there? Yeah, totally Okay Um, something that um a credit card. So if something like that ever were to happen again, I would have a credit card on file and I could just charge a show up fee, which I do now.

Jamie Runco:

Um and it it says on on my um, um, on my uh it's contract. I call it a welcome, a board pack, welcome to the family pack, welcome to the family, um, but, uh, it says on my welcome pack that, um, if I show up to your door, one of my cleaning techs do, it's only fair that uh, you didn't give me 48 hour notice and I get to charge for the full cleaning of your your uh clean and um, because you'd be scrambling around to now try and fill that slot whenever I have. You know, um, even if I was solo, I wouldn't been able to fill that spot and we're relying on that and that's only fair.

Shannon Miller:

It is. I know that we're still going through this transition in the cleaning industry. It's a huge industry. It's so big that Grant Cardone is actually dipping his toe in the water, which is a whole other thing I'm not going to talk about here, which I find interesting. But you have to make sure that there are systems in place so that things like this don't happen, and the reason why I have so many systems in place is because I have had it happen.

Shannon Miller:

It sucks. People don't take us seriously. They just think that you're just, it's a hobby, it's a side gig. Oh, you're just a cleaner. Yeah, you're just a cleaner, it's a side gig. Oh, you're just a big deal. Yeah, you're just a cleaner, it's no big deal. What are you getting? Your panties all up in a ruffle and when, in actuality, they don't see that it costs money to send someone to your door, it costs insurance, it costs workman's comp, it costs payroll taxes, there's gear that has to be carried, there's unloading and loading, there's prep involved and when, in actuality, if they had given you proper notification, you could have tried to fill the spot. That's the whole intention, because you can only have so many spots on your schedule versus the workforce Right, and then as you grow your workforce, the more houses you can take on, and it's a you know, an ebb and flow. So that's the show fee was something that was instituted because I actually had the TV there.

Shannon Miller:

They knocked on the door and the old man said something unruly and slam the door in their face. So I said you know, I'm in that area, I'll be there in five minutes, cause I was doing something else. And I drove over there and I knocked on the door and I said hey, this is castle keeper cleaning. Well, you're not fucking coming in here. I'm sorry. I was going to try to keep this PC and I didn't. Um, and I said okay.

Shannon Miller:

So then I got the person who actually hired us and um on the on the phone. I said look, my cleaning techs have arrived, your father's not letting us in. Look, my cleaning techs have arrived, your father's not letting us in. I'm personally here on site and your father's not letting us in, so it doesn't look like it's going to work out. I don't know what you have to do or say to your father, but we're going to have to reschedule and I'm going to charge you a show up fee.

Shannon Miller:

And it became this whole dynamic of you know, I'm not paying you, I'm going to ruin you. There's all of these threats because they're not getting what they want and when, in actuality, had I had it happen after I had instituted the paperwork too, and it worked out like a charm, but it took me a couple of tries to get it. So, after the fact that I, you know, I wasted my time, I wasted the clean tech time, I still had to pay them and, um I it was a lot right. So it wasn't fair that the cleaning techs didn't get paid. They woke up this morning, took time out of their day to show up to the job Made arrangements, babysitters you know they had to pay.

Jamie Runco:

I just goes on Right and it's a great area, depending on your state.

Shannon Miller:

So if, typically, if they show up to a job and it's supposed to be an eight hour job, they get paid half, so they would get paid four hours. Make sure that's legal in your state before you do it.

Jamie Runco:

I don't want anyone looking at your labor laws because our labor laws. And then this is in California. See, that's different in Arizona, in California, here it's totally different. You automatically get a show up fee for two hours, right?

Shannon Miller:

So yeah, Two hours or four hours or whatever you work on, whatever yeah.

Jamie Runco:

Make sure you're always looking into your state's rules.

Shannon Miller:

Yeah, the state's rules for labor, because you don't want to, on accident, do something that's wrong Cause then you get a big fine. But make sure that you do that. And then when I and you guys all know I came from a merry-maids back where I was a merry-maid when the economy tanks, um, when I shuttered my jewelry store in downtown Prescott, I um, I never got paid for the times I showed up. I was mad. I'm like I took all this time to come over and Mary Mays would never pay me. Then that was like the beginning of the end with them. So don't lose your golden unicorns because of stupid stuff like that. So make sure that they're being fairly compensated. If it's two hours, four hours or whatever it is, I always want to go above and beyond, because that's where I make. My money is off those guys. Right, those are your golden unicorn. Yes, you have your weekly clients, but it's your cleaning techs where you earn your money.

Shannon Miller:

They're they're your biggest customers and got to keep them happy, so you know so, so we pay for.

Jamie Runco:

uh, you know Manny's? Oh, did you get a free day off with two hours pay, go ahead and go, here's a coffee, or not, every time you know, but show them that they're appreciated and valued because it's hard work and play a big deal.

Shannon Miller:

I see it all over Facebook. So those types of things happen with show up fees. There's show up fees when you do move out cleanings. There's a stipulation in the contract that I have that's been used over 8,500 times. It says must have working water on and in working condition and electricity. I can't tell you. It usually happens one or twice a year. The clean techs don't care because they're still getting paid and there's a dynamic because it pisses the client off when it happens. So if they want you to wait around while they call the city to try to get it on, I'll usually tell them you know, here's a gift card or here's some cash, go get breakfast. This is when I had W-2s. You can't do this for 1099s and they would go get breakfast and then come back and hopefully the customer had resolved. So they got charged the $400 the first time. When they show back up, it's a fresh $400 charge and it's not because we like sticking it to people, it's because the cleaning techs still deserve to be paid for their time.

Jamie Runco:

That's how it works and we live rural so there's a lot of off-grid um cleanings that we do um it's a it's a very off-gridish community that we live in here very drive on some of it.

Jamie Runco:

Yeah. So you know, you go back there and it's you're, you have you look behind you and there's a whole entourage because you want to make sure you know this job properly and that they do. And I just I, I don't. You know, it's like living out in the wild, wild west here. You make sure that you're, you know um properly, good, you know just good that your cleaning techs are there, um, but you show up and there's no water.

Shannon Miller:

Right, oh, sorry, the pump isn't working Well. Didn't you check it before? Yeah, oh.

Jamie Runco:

I'm, I'm, I'm down South in LA, oh, oh, well, that. Well, in that case, let me send all you know, this whole entourage of cars that I got over the bridge somehow, and have them go get something to eat, and I will.

Shannon Miller:

I can either charge you to go get the water it will be five hundred dollars, or um or we can reschedule it and you'll still have to pay that for the whole and there's no sugarcoating it, and you are going to have people who are upset because they think it's unfair, because they don't think it's going to happen to them, but invariably it does happen to them. And then the other kind of um non-payment is and we've seen this happen a lot in our industry. It happens in other industries as well. You do the job, you take the deposit it's recommended that you take a 50% deposit on day of booking to secure their spot on the schedule and then you finish the job and then you're like you know your, their credit card doesn't go through or they dispute the charges or whatever, and they, they did a walkthrough and you had them sign everything, whether it was digital or on paper, depending on your location and what's going on with that job and then they dispute it and then it becomes this whole battle of wills over trying to get the money back and it and it sucks because every time you have a dispute on your merchant account, you get dinged and depending on who you merchant account with, it's $50 or $25 or $35. It just depends on who that bank is and so you automatically eat that right off the top.

Shannon Miller:

So you have to sue them and now we're going to talk about what that's like and what's the process for it and all of the craziness that goes along with it, and it's not something that we go around wanting to do because it's time consuming, but it's to prove that we are an actual trade. We are an actual business. We had honorable intentions and, besides, we all know that defrauding a merchant is against the law. I don't know why people think that you didn't do good enough job. You're not going to get paid. I'm like I would like to see it on your job. If you made a mistake, if they just docked you half your pay, it's just like give me a break.

Jamie Runco:

I right.

Shannon Miller:

But they try to do it all the time.

Jamie Runco:

The amount of fees that are associated with running an actual legitimate business, or or even if you're solo, just the solo. So it's well, I was solo and then I knew I wanted to be big. But you know it's so hard, there's so many hats that they wear and it's just no it's. You gotta have those policies in place. You have to have them in place, and so this don't happen to you, right, because nothing hurts worse than whenever you work so hard to to get the job, to to, if you're doing in-person bidding, go bid the job, do the uh, get your deposit, then just for them to turn around and now their credit card don't work. I just um, yeah, and you could talk about, didn't something like that just happen to you recently, shannon?

Shannon Miller:

There was a lady in my town, prescott, and we took a 50% deposit. The cleaning techs called me and they're like you're coming right. And I'm like, well, I wasn't planning on coming.

Shannon Miller:

What's going on? Then they staff photos. So I went, I ended up going over there with them, because it's when you're doing light hoarding, cleaning or um cleaning from someone who isn't had hasn't had all of their faculties for a while, it can be overwhelming. It's mostly trash, laundry and then food dumping. We, um, I went over there and I helped him out because it was on, it was on good faith. I'm like, okay, we already took the deposits, I'll worry about getting the rest of the money at the end of the day.

Shannon Miller:

The end of the day came and she tried, um, she was going through AA, and so she tried to get one of her sponsors to pay the remaining bill. And I'm like, and the sponsors full on, like letting loose on me, just yelling at the top of her lungs about how I'm just a POS, that I'm overcharging, that it's outrageous. And I'm like, look, she contracted with me. I had no idea she was calling you. So I I got lucky on this one and I ended up. I was so mad because it was, it was bracket. We, we had 57 trash bags that we removed from this two bedroom, two bath condo and that had to be walked over to the dumpster. We didn't. We had to empty out the refrigerator because there was all kinds of science, projecty type things in there. We did nine loads of dishes in for the dishwasher and we started the process of the laundry, which we of course could not finish even on the shortest load.

Shannon Miller:

And how I ended up getting paid is she was on the radar. This might not work. It might work in your town. So I called the Prescott police and I said I have a lady here who is refusing to pay her bill. Is there anything that you can do? And I happen to know the police officer because, again, I live in a smaller town. He's like I'll be right over there, let's see what we can do.

Shannon Miller:

And through the conversation because you know when you walk up to any police officer, they want to see your ID. After you get past the formalities of what that is, he goes well, we've actually she's on the radar and she's done this on more than one occasion. So they went to her while I stayed over at the police car and talked to her. So the police officer, through the conversation, ended up getting a number of someone who was going to pay the bill, but he only wanted to pay part of the bill and I. It was a very this is like gossipy. I feel really guilty even saying this but he was actually married to someone prominent in the town, but he was also she was also his mistress. So there was this whole dynamic that.

Shannon Miller:

I did not want to step in. Yeah, it was like drama.

Jamie Runco:

How did I get here?

Shannon Miller:

How did I get myself in this position and how do I just? I just want to get paid at this point.

Jamie Runco:

Get out.

Shannon Miller:

Yeah, I just wanted the extra, I think never again a thousand dollar cleaning and I wanted the extra, cause initially I had quoted her 400. So, um, I just wanted the extra six, 50. So he's trying to knock down the bill and I'm like I finally had to go to him. I'm like I know who you are. If you're, if you, um, would like I can speak to your wife, and then that's when the bill got paid, and then that was the end of the conversation.

Shannon Miller:

But I got lucky on that one because she was on the radar of the police department and they were nice enough to come over and say you need to pay this lady. But I had to pull rank and say I know, you know, I know who your wife is. I'm happy to call her if you'd like, because you know she just didn't have the money to pay the bill. It was actually an awful experience and I don't ever want anyone or recommend anyone to go through it. But I've had multiple experiences where people get themselves tightly wound in these situations and you have to kind of look at this from the outside in trying to figure out how. I just want to get paid. I want to go and I want to leave, right, I just not, you know it's not.

Jamie Runco:

Yeah.

Shannon Miller:

Right, hang out and be friends. While we were there, it was like nine o'clock in the morning and she drank three bottles of Chardonnay without eating anything. I'm like, aren't you going to have?

Jamie Runco:

breakfast. What are you talking about? That is the whole thing that I was telling you about whenever. Um, it was my first time ever showing up to and there was a thing she was. She had agoraphobic, or she was agoraphobic which, but her husband is a some doctor around here and she would get cases of hard liquor delivered to her. I just yeah, it was. That was an experience.

Shannon Miller:

I ended up getting help, because that was awful.

Jamie Runco:

Yeah, yeah, I, because that was awful. Yeah, yeah, I that was same, but um, I don't have to have ever run into, I don't have to have the problem of our knowing that I'll ever run into her, because I I drive by her house all the time.

Shannon Miller:

But it's just wild. But yeah, there are circumstances that um force you a shoe like. There was a gentleman who, um, decided that we were scheduled to come the day of it was a weird request. So we're getting there and he's like, oh, you guys can't come today because I've decided to remodel the bathroom. Like you still have to pay, I'm gonna ruin you, is the first thing out of his mouth. I can't believe you're doing this. This is highway robbery. Like you signed the paperwork, did you not understand what you signed?

Jamie Runco:

right, yeah, yeah, you signed, I have your signature and I will say for for those things that are new, the credit card department.

Shannon Miller:

So I do all of the. I used to do it through DocuSign and now I finally have graduated over to GetJobber. I know it took a long time because I'm old school, but through GetJobber. So you have to have them sign in your, where it says client information. It says by, and I put in the bottom part it says by agreeing to this quote, you also authorize and the name of my LLC is Shannon Lee and Miller LLC to charge your credit card that you have given us on file, verbally, over the phone, and because the credit card companies are now, if you don't have anything signed, you're not getting it back, they don't care. So make sure that you have covered all of your t's and dotted all your i's, because you just don't really know what's going to end up happening in the wash. Um, I know of a carpet cleaner here who did some floor work for someone and ate 50 grand and he and I were talking about, yeah, 50 grand oh yeah, it sucked, and so I had to walk him through how to sue the clients.

Shannon Miller:

And it was just you know. You just never know about people at all.

Jamie Runco:

Yeah, no, and you don't. And they can be nice as pie in front of your face and I can too but you're going to make sure that you get these policies in place so that you don't run into? Run into these. Don't do what we have done. Take it from us, it's learn from our mistakes yeah, learn. Uh, you know, I seen um one of. She said you can afford to go to Lurpin some, some venue, some concert venue, but you can't afford to pay your cleaner.

Jamie Runco:

And I, just my heart and I that's, that's where that networking comes in, and I was hey, hey, I can help you with that. You know, um, I won't name names, but, um, if she's watching, you know who you are, uh and it, yeah, policies in place that way and a credit card on file eliminates everything Most of the time, most of the time. Sometimes you'll get those ones where Shannon just told us the story of and you know, you have some of those people too, some of those people too, but, um, and that's whenever you start calling the police and filing for the services, and it's because it is especially if you have somebody that has signed off on this and has given the credit card, right, you know it's always an interesting dynamic because, like we also have a clause in there.

Shannon Miller:

It says that we, for one-time cleanings this is your game changer, listen to this carefully and for all one-time cleanings, we require you, your significant other or a proxy, to come and do the final walkthrough at the end of the completion of the job. If you refuse to do that or you cannot do it, we get that. We will walk it and hope that we've gotten everything that needs to be addressed and we are no longer responsible if something is missed or it wasn't clean to your satisfaction. And that alleviates a lot of problems, because what happens is they are like I'm too busy, I don't want to go, and then four days later, they show up and go oh my God, you didn't do this. It's like you, you didn't come over. Why didn't you come over?

Shannon Miller:

Right, or send a proxy, or the lead will do it and walk it and we'll take I'm taking before and after photos is such a big ding right now. Um, because they'll say you didn't clean. You're like well, this was clean when I left. Look, snap, snap, snap, right. Um, so making sure that, yeah, having your photo, having a place for them to deposit the photos, either slack or whatever messenger group. You guys are using um to keep those um at hand, because stuff happens. They will try to say you didn't clean, or now I've changed my mind, I have sticker shock and I wanted to.

Jamie Runco:

I want you to give me a discount, a lot of that happens, the sticker shock that yeah, or they sit there and think about it. Wait a minute, right.

Shannon Miller:

They don't see that what's gone in and what's behind, and how hard it actually is to achieve what you have done.

Shannon Miller:

It takes years of practice Right and he knows Right. So make sure that you are following protocol and that you have these systems in place. This is um. Obviously mentioned in um the cleaning contract bundle. It's a template. You just, you know download the pdfs. You just copy and paste, load it into a document, add your logo, make it yours, um. The only stipulation is that you cannot sell it for profit. It's for you and your business only. Um. I believe I finally got the legal jargon in there that my attorney wanted in there. But those are some of the ways that you have problems. Because I have gone through these problems, please learn from my mistakes.

Jamie Runco:

Exactly, exactly and yeah, and know when to start at you know, uh, if you have any questions, know when. It's pretty pretty easy to talk to. I would say, wouldn't you, shannon? I mean?

Shannon Miller:

definitely yeah but sometimes remember that we have other things going on. So if you reach out to us, we sometimes can't get to you right away. Yeah, texting me at night is not going to work.

Jamie Runco:

Shannon is still running a business. I think you said probably over a hundred phone calls a day, maybe, if not more.

Shannon Miller:

It depends on the week. So you know it could be anywhere from one to 200 people a week that I'm talking to. So if I don't, if I say it's mommy and I don't remember your, specific situation.

Shannon Miller:

Please don't get upset because I talk to a lot of people, but let's talk a little bit about the process. You've tried to go through the process, you've demanded payments and they're like I'm not budging. So then you're like okay, well, if you unfortunately don't pay me, I'm going to have to take you to court. So there's a process. So for here in my area, I just go right to downtown Prescott. It's got a big courthouse, a superior court for Yappavai County, and I grab two forms of paperwork that you get at the special window where you ring the bell and I can't remember what it's called and you go right inside there and I say, ok, I'm going to have to file a small claims court. So then you go over to where the law library is and they let you use the tables for free. Make sure you bring change. If you're local, believe it or not, it's not digital yet.

Jamie Runco:

No, that's true, you got to bring cash and change. Right, you have to bring change for copies.

Shannon Miller:

And so you want to make sure that you know. I believe you can do the outside of the box charge. So if you have a hundred copies, they charge you like 35 cents each and they just bill it to your credit card plus the fee. So you can do it that way, but try to remember to bring change. You fill out the paperwork and there's a process to it. So you fill out the paperwork, you file the paperwork, you pay the processing fee. I believe here it's pretty cheap I want to say it's 35 bucks and then then there's another step that you have to do. So you have to have the paperwork served. So, depending on how far of a distance there is, you have to go to the sheriff's office.

Jamie Runco:

Well, during COVID or somebody that's not related into the. That has nothing to do with either side right, and you can do that.

Shannon Miller:

I just choose the big sheriff. That's what.

Shannon Miller:

Five and two hundred pounds, uh, you know, because I don't want anyone to get harmed over some volatility of something. So I I go over to the sheriff's department, I knock on the door and I say what, what's your? Because they won't let you in anymore since covid you have to go, what's your business? I'm, I'm here to, I need someone to serve some paperwork for me. And they go okay, you have to bring cash. It's 150 bucks to serve, have paperwork served and plus mileage. So you have to give them the deposit and then sometimes you get a refund, sometimes you don't.

Shannon Miller:

So then after that, then it goes um through the court system. It takes about 30 days. They'll send you notice and says you're, you're scheduled for mediation. You have the option of having mediation. Your scheduled tentative date is here, yay or nay. So if you don't choose to go through mediation, you can go right through court. Usually I try to go through mediation because I'm trying honestly to have them pay before I go through the process of actually suing and winning and having a ding on their, theirs right their thing.

Shannon Miller:

So after we go through mediation, remember anything that's said in mediation notes or any conversation cannot be recorded and it can't be used in the court proceeding should you get that far, so you can basically say anything to them like my grandma wears blue purple bloomers and it won't show up. So you can basically say anything to them like my grandma wears blue purple bloomers, and it won't show up and they can't say. They can't go to the person in court and said shannon says her grandma wears purple bloomers I'm really telling what you really think and you can't tell what you really think and it can't be recorded.

Shannon Miller:

And there is the last one that I did particularly. I said some not nice things because I had had it. She wanted to resolve it for twenty five dollars. She still owed me four hundred and eighty bucks. So I'm like, fine, and then I go well, I'll see you in court because I'm going to win. And then the media goes. The mediator told me to her in front of everybody she goes, just because Mrs Miller says that she's going to win doesn't mean that she will. Everybody she goes. Just because Mrs Miller says that she's going to win doesn't mean that she will. And I looked at the mediator and I pointed my finger and I said I'm winning this case, I'll see you in court. I left and then we went to court and I brought all my paperwork. It was like 275 pages at this point.

Shannon Miller:

I submitted them. She had her copy. The judge got his copy because you have to have three copies total. I'm sorry, two copies go to the court and one copy no, one copy goes to the court because the judge gets it, is it? I might be confusing this, I'm sorry, it's been a while. I think it's two copies to the court, one to the sheriff and one for you. So I think it's four copies. So the judge has it. He goes through all the paperwork and you have to remember that when you're in court you have to be very factual and non-emotional, and I always wait until they start to lie, because invariably they do. And then I always get shocked because I'm like they're not going to lie, they can't make this any worse than it is. And I go, and then you have to say I'm sorry, your honor, but this person is not telling the truth. Here is page seven of this. They have to because they have the same paperwork that you have, right. So there's this dynamic that happens and then the judge ultimately decides.

Shannon Miller:

In every single time I've had to do it like 20 times, unfortunately. I've won every single time. And I'm like I went out to her. I went out to this person and I had to wait for her to go downstairs first, because she had to pay the check to the cashier. And there's nothing more satisfying than watching a homeowner who's told you to stick it where the sun doesn't shine and getting that check from them, because if the check bounces after you win, then you can press charges against them. And I asked her this last individual, who shall not be named, and, um, I did the whole finger thing. I'm like I told you I'd win and I grabbed my check and I left, oh yeah yeah, it is yeah it takes like six months and I remember calling my mom.

Jamie Runco:

I'm like I won and it's the principle of. It's not you know, it's the whole principle. Right, right, and not only you know, you do need to recover some of that money back, right.

Shannon Miller:

It does. It did take a long time and it is tedious and most people just write it off as a loss. But my, my mentality is I'm teaching these customers not to treat our industry this way. That's why I choose to do it. It's about the money, but it's more about the principle behind the money and it was very satisfying to tell her I told you I would win, and no, and rightfully so yeah. Don't ever call me again. You were 86 for life, lady, but yeah, yeah.

Jamie Runco:

I have a couple of people that try and call me still and we have a, like I said, we have a little gathering of other cleaning business owners, of people that are blacklisted or 86. So we keep in communication with each other like that to watch each other's backs. You know, hey, this person's gonna rip you off if you take them on, you know use caution.

Shannon Miller:

Yeah, yes. And then there's the other lady where I didn't have to go to court and this just happened recently where she was a bi-weekly client and decided that she didn't like the name that was being charged. So she disputed over, I think it was, 12 charges. It was really unpleasant to deal with, and started to argue with me and thank goodness I had done a lot of this through text, so I had a lot of hard copy. So when I because I tried to resolve it with her before I put my dispute in and then I just submitted all that all I think it was 70 pages of paperwork and I submitted, I ended up winning the dispute, but I wasn't sure if I was going to win it or not.

Shannon Miller:

But she basically she just didn't want to pay, but she wanted to, she wanted to start fresh. Right, continue, we're just going to dispute. You know, $1,500 in charges or more, maybe it was more than that and then move forward, and then move forward fresh. So it was let's see how much it was. You guys know I can't do math when I'm on these things so 158, 50 times 12 visits yeah, it was like two grand 1902. And then I ended up eating 150 bucks because my merchant account takes 50 bucks off the top for the mediation of the dispute and it took um 52 days to get my money back oh, I I kind of I vaguely remember whenever that was going on.

Jamie Runco:

I mean yeah, yeah no, it happens.

Shannon Miller:

She was the nicest little old lady. You would never have thought she would have done something like that. But there are people out there.

Jamie Runco:

I felt like I got conned yeah, yeah, like, oh and it and it hurts too. It hurts whenever it's like did you just con me right? Totally. I felt good, I told them one way over here, but you're this way over here behind closed door.

Shannon Miller:

Yeah, no, yeah those are some of the things that you can do to try to get yourself paid. I know we went through it really super duper fast, but there are options out there. You don't have to eat it if you don't want to. You could. It does take tenacity and patience. You have to be methodical, you have to cross your T's and die your I's, because you're submitting paperwork to a court of law but there is a process to defunding or defrauding the merchants. Yeah, there is. Yeah, all right.

Jamie Runco:

Well, this concludes our happy meeting again with Miss Jamie Renko from All Above Cleaning in Northern California oh fine, yeah, thank you so very much, absolutely.

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Jamie Runco

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Shannon Miller

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